If you’re interested in employer branding, you’re in for a delight. Below is my discussion with Andrew Levy. Andrew and I first connected in 2012 at a TMP Worldwide/Intuit vendor event. Jason Webster from Ongig/Glassdoor/Greenhouse fame was present as well.
Since then, Andrew has contributed to the talent branding teams at WeWork, Uber, and Autodesk. He possesses a distinct background and shares plenty of valuable employer branding insights.
Enjoy!
Does every organization require an employer branding leader?
Not necessarily the position itself, but there should be someone whose responsibilities are explicitly listed in their description, tasked with defining, measuring, and promoting an employment brand.
Too many organizations allow their corporate brand to function independently. That doesn’t effectively inform potential employees about anything, so they are actually disadvantaging themselves by failing to manage, define, and take action on it.
Where should employer branding reside within an organization — Who reports to whom? Talent Acquisition, Marketing?
I’ve been on the inside, the agency side, you name it. I’ve observed every variation of how this type of role integrates.
I don’t believe it truly matters.
I think it’s a role that exists in-between, as you correctly pointed out, many different departments: marketing communications, internal communications, branding, talent acquisition, so it doesn’t genuinely belong in any one place.
“You need to identify an individual who excels at forging connections and bringing people together within an organization. That’s your person to oversee the employment brand.”
Uber and WeWork — What insights have you gained from scaling these two colossal brands?
At both Uber and WeWork, the position that I eventually took didn’t exist initially. I more or less advocated for myself into it.
I reached out to a senior individual within talent acquisition and asked, “Hey, do you know who is overseeing your employment brand? Who manages your recruitment marketing? Is there a strategy in place?”
Both organizations seemed puzzled and thought, interesting, we should have a role like that. So I ended up composing my own job description outlining the responsibilities I believed this position should entail and the anticipated size of the team as it expanded.
From there, I methodically piloted, tested, and expanded initiatives within the company and gradually developed teams and the strategy moving forward.
So it’s very much an experimental tactic regarding this sort of work. And I think most hyper-growth firms will adopt that mentality. Therefore, it was quite a natural alignment at both places.
What’s something that people from the outside would find surprising about working on Uber’s talent branding team?
The most prominent and flourishing channel that we established, which had an entire team underneath it, was very, very high-touch personal events for engineers.
It was so effective that during the entire brand turmoil that Uber faced, we had a few individuals directly focused on this. We would even import engineers from various countries into the U.S. where there were favorable visa agreements. This accounted for 40% of engineer hiring.
It was extraordinary, a tremendous success. And it was just a handful of individuals organizing these events.
How did these events for engineering recruitment function?
Essentially, you travel to a specific market, let’s say Mexico City, you conduct extensive pre-identification of candidates (like sourcing) and then invite them to an experiential 3-4 day event where they participate in tech talks, interact with others, undergo a comprehensive interview process, and finally receive an offer at the end.
So it’s the recruitment process amplified and condensed into a very short timeframe.
From there, they can choose New York, San Francisco, or another engineering hub location, and relocate themselves.
“So deeply involved, but when you’re an engineering firm in crisis, needing to grow at tremendous scale, this channel turned out to be by far the most cost-effective and advantageous for the company.”
How metrics-driven is Uber, in terms of talent?
Very, that’s actually where I gained significant insight into marketing analytics for recruitment.
It’s not something people commonly engage in. They’ll invest in media or job postings here and there and kind of just scatter their efforts, hoping for a return.
I adopted a highly analytical approach. I borrowed much of the methodology that the driver acquisition team employed and applied that to full-time employee recruitment.
The Driver position (for Uber, Lyft, etc.) may be the most critical evergreen job to fill in our lifetime. What did you learn about filling such perennial roles?
It’s something I gained extensive knowledge from by delving deep into the analytics concerning these positions.
“One of the key lessons I learned at Uber was that the applications and effectiveness of a job have a lifecycle. There’s a phase where you reach a peak and then a decline.”
You can analyze your pool of jobs and optimize their lifespan and the timing of when they get taken down and reposted based on that historical data.
So we’ve gained a wealth of knowledge about evergreen roles in engineering or marketing and how to manage that group. And how to most efficiently enhance the recruitment funnel when and where necessary.
How competitive was talent acquisition and branding at Uber as opposed to Lyft during your tenure there?
Uber was roughly 15 times larger than Lyft. So from a talent standpoint, Lyft actually became quite adept at attracting our top performers (both drivers and internal team members) as they progressed.
It’s Silicon Valley; we’re all vying for the same talent. Therefore, I don’t believe Lyft was any more of a contender than anyone else in the talent landscape.
And what about WeWork? What’s something people from the outside might find surprising regarding the talent team and branding team?
I joined WeWork at the same time I joined Uber, when it was medium-sized and on the brink of skyrocketing in size within a year.
What was particularly intriguing about my role there was similar — I advocated for myself and crafted my own job description.
It rapidly expanded in scope. You view employment marketing as an umbrella, I was actually focused on talent attraction at WeWork. This encompassed:
This branding role essentially evolved into a head of talent position. And I believe that’s the direction we are heading.
“The future is likely to be more of a sales and marketing-oriented organization, which will characterize your talent acquisition group, rather than the traditional assembly of recruiters. So it naturally unfolded into what I believe most organizations will transition to in the next five or six years.”
What do you predict the future structure of talent acquisition teams will look like?
I can share a bit about the Uber scenario. We reached a stage where the team had very particular channel strategies that encompassed:
- In-person activations
- Email marketing
- Performance promotion
- SEO/SEM
When you view it from that perspective, it resembles a genuine marketing and advertising agency.
At WeWork, there were also additional internal cultural aspects. The brand stewardship, content creation, inclusivity, campus-related matters, and so forth. It became so expansive that this type of marketing and advertising role merely replaced a conventional talent organization.
“I believe organizations that are truly valuable will begin recruiting heads of talent acquisition with a background in marketing and advertising. Ultimately, sales and marketing versus recruitment share the same objective; they’re aiming for the same end, promoting different products. One is marketing a widget while the other is promoting a job.”
You’ve collaborated with several significant applicant tracking systems (Taleo, Workday, iCIMS, even a custom-built one at Uber). How does the ATS relate to employer branding?
Any proficient talent acquisition organization, once they progress beyond merely filling job vacancies and develop a deeper understanding of the data surrounding their job requirements, will necessitate a well-organized and explicitly defined applicant tracking system.
When you consider what an employer branding or talent attraction team does, it funnels qualified candidates into that system.
“To demonstrate any form of ROI or gain insights from the campaigns you’re implementing, you must ensure that the flow from external vendors to the ATS, then to hiring and onboarding, is exceptionally seamless. You must ensure that all your tags, sourcing, and secondary sources are interconnected throughout.”
Thus, a competent ATS and the know-how to compose and monitor sources within an ATS is essential. Some perform this function well, while others do not. The unfortunate reality of employer marketing or advertising is that there are countless channels available, differing internationally, all of which must converge in a singular location. There are numerous potential points of failure.
A case in point includes companies like Glassdoor and LinkedIn.
You cannot obtain the in-depth analytics you desire; understanding the conversion path isn’t always feasible either. From your platform (such as your landing page on Glassdoor), how does that candidate convert all the way into a hire? That requires quite advanced tagging and, in some cases, isn’t achievable.
Another pertinent example would be international settings, like Asia or Southeast Asia specifically; they lag approximately a decade behind the Western world in terms of how to connect systems together.
In some scenarios, you cannot even monitor application clicks in other markets. You simply need to navigate through it and grasp what’s accessible and where.
“I think most critically, at least establishing your baseline analytics and genuinely adhering to it is vital. If you’re going to invest in something, you should track it as comprehensively as possible, and initiate that tough discussion to assert, no, I will not purchase something unless you can measure its effectiveness.”
You referenced LinkedIn. What have you heard regarding LinkedIn’s new applicant tracking system? Anything?
I haven’t really heard much regarding it. Just offhand, I would probably state no, I wouldn’t be interested due to their protective stance on data.
I prefer ATS platforms like iCims because they allow for a multitude of integrations, providing much greater flexibility. You can configure it however you wish.
LinkedIn generally operates as a closed ecosystem. You receive what you invest in. That’s all.
When you and I conversed, you were employed at TMP (the recruitment agency). How should talent acquisition leaders approach collaborating with recruitment agencies?
They’re indispensable.
There are only a handful of brands or companies, like your Ubers, WeWork, Salesforce, that can assemble a team of 15 individuals dedicated solely to employer marketing.
Engaging a capable agency is vital, especially if you lack a full-time individual overseeing this work. They are in touch with market trends and what’s innovative and appealing.
What’s your recommendation for a talent leader on selecting an employer branding agency?
I’m an analytics enthusiast. I would suggest opting for one with a verified track record of demonstrating ROI on their analytics first.
Personally, I’ve worked primarily with, and continue to collaborate with, Recruitics, which operates as a performance marketing and advertising agency.
How significant is programmatic ad purchasing these days? Is that the most considerable change with agencies? Is that the primary new value they offer?
Absolutely. I think many people tend to get sidetracked by the flash, such as video or an impressive brand campaign on LinkedIn, focusing on the visually appealing aspect of advertising.
If you consider what you’re genuinely aiming to achieve in the talent acquisition field, it’s placing quality candidates into roles.
“The most effective way to achieve this is through adaptable advertising, such as performance advertising. This includes Indeed pay-per-click or any of those aggregators. A provider like Recruitics, which functions almost like a software platform, assists you in optimizing that expenditure quickly and efficiently.”
I would advise anyone taking on this task to start with programmatic, then gradually enhance the sophistication of their approach towards content marketing once they have the fundamentals in place.
Around 2013, you had a plethora of brilliant insights regarding search engine optimization (SEO). How do SEO and employer branding complement each other?
I believe SEO is one of the foremost actions someone should undertake. They should reach out within the organization to find an SEO specialist.
Everyone understands that your careers website and your job landing pages are vital. These are the sites that individuals actively searching will first visit or discover organically through search engines.
One reason I appreciate Ongig is its capacity to place highly customizable content, tags, and everything else on a single page in an automated manner.
It’s immensely scalable and will significantly enhance your search rankings. There is no ATS that accomplishes this for you; nothing else exists that does. So certainly, individuals will notice it and appropriate learnings from across departments.
How much effort do companies like Autodesk, Uber, or WeWork invest in their career sites and job postings?
Considerable! Career sites are often treated as secondary or neglected aspects that don’t receive the attention on the primary site that they warrant, despite typically being the most visited section of your website. This holds true for Uber and WeWork even more so than their product sales, as they attract more traffic to their career sites.
How much effort is involved? It varies. I designed and launched career sites for each of those brands, Autodesk, WeWork, and Uber.
It depends on whether you build it entirely in-house or opt for a SaaS vendor. Ongig is indeed a viable choice for a career site.
“What I envision for the future is career sites that are rooted in some sort of talent CRM. Deep integration with your contact lists, so rather than requiring candidates to search and apply, they can…
just sort of elevate their hand slightly, provide you with a name, an email address, and their location or age or some such detail.
Gradually, you can cultivate them throughout the journey to enter the application pipeline. That’s essentially where I perceive the optimal career site.
How do marketing and talent teams collaborate? Where do they synergize, and where do they face challenges?
The reason I believe that the employment brand, employment marketing, and talent attraction function should stand independently is due to the distinct KPIs and metrics specific to a marketing department. Talent acquisition operates on entirely different KPIs and metrics. You’re rarely going to gain the focus you desire from a marketing organization. This isn’t to imply that there isn’t significant overlap.
When delving into the corporate branding aspect, particularly in storytelling about diversity, employee narratives, or executive representation, those endeavors should be mutually supportive between your talent attraction function and your marketing or communications team.
It’s really about constructing that bridge early, executing collaborative campaigns where feasible, yet also understanding when to delineate your work to gain your own agency and budget. You’re unlikely to receive as much as you want from marketing, so choose your battles judiciously.
Did you also undertake initial projects involving video job descriptions? We collaborated on numerous initiatives at Autodesk. What impact can video have? What insights did you gain?
I recall the Autodesk ones quite well. Additionally, I believe Yelp was one of your initial clients that excelled in video job descriptions.
The aspect I appreciate most about that method is the openness.
You instantly grasp the ambiance, the aesthetics of the office, and even the hiring manager, in certain instances, whom you might converse with. That degree of accessibility is unmatched; it’s not attainable on Glassdoor or the career site.
Individuals are increasingly comfortable with this kind of video, shot directly on your iPhone or laptop. That’s all it takes. I genuinely believe that as these systems become more interconnected, I hope more hiring managers will create a brief 20-second video to boost employer branding in job descriptions moving ahead.
What is your view on utilizing professional versus amateur video for job descriptions?
I have no objections to creating something straightforward and uncomplicated. However, when reaching a point with a multi-billion dollar brand while attempting to represent how the talent brand aligns with the corporate brand, that’s when professional videos become essential.
For mediums like a job description page, which will frequently change, why not feature a quick chat? I see no reason against it. Thus, I believe it’s wise to select the quality of video for the more refined content.
Culture Decks. You were involved in the Autodesk Culture Code Slideshare deck that gained massive traction. I believe that Netflix, Hubspot, and Autodesk have the most renowned culture code decks. What constitutes a Culture Code Deck, and what do you remember about it?
Upon reviewing, it has amassed 1.9 million views. Astonishing. This indeed was a remarkable cross-functional event where I had an early Employee Value Proposition (EVP).
We sought a quick and simple method to visually convey the work experience at Autodesk.
- What are the exciting aspects of the Autodesk brand?
- The projects you would be involved in.
I collaborated with a designer and several members of their team, and we quickly ideated and assembled a concise deck. It wasn’t particularly elaborate; it took us a couple of hours. We then shared it on SlideShare and conducted internal training for recruiters and staff on how to promote it on LinkedIn and similar platforms. Consequently, this piece of content spread organically.
The deck comprised 60 slides. The idea behind it was to adopt a somewhat BuzzFeed style. Its title was Top Seven Reasons You Should Work at Autodesk. And just like that, bam, bam, bam, bam, slide through; you absorb it through the visuals.
I thoroughly enjoyed that project. To this day, it remains one of my proudest endeavors. Zero expenditure, and just an incredibly impactful piece of content.
Conservatively, it may have taken about five total hours. It frequently emerged during the recruitment process; candidates would express appreciation for it, stating it intrigued them and truly brought them on board.
Any recommendations for crafting a compelling employer value proposition?
Certainly. Developing an effective employee value proposition hinges on how adventurous you wish to be.
The foremost element of an EVP is ensuring it is:
- Grounded in data.
- Based on research.
- Engaging with the individuals for whom it holds the most significance during the process.
What I mean by this is conducting focus groups centered around themes, values, examining your existing culture surveys, and analyzing Glassdoor data. Gather as much information as possible, consolidate it, and then gain comprehension.
“There exists an employee experience, an external brand, and somewhere in between lies the actual experience of working there. That is your EVP.”
Through this research, you can arrive at a singular focal point.
It’s crucial to:
- Incorporate those most essential to ensure it forms a committee collaboratively engaged in this process.
- Leverage your internal team to assist in writing it.
- Test it among your employees.
- Ensure it is crafted by the employees for the employees.
This doesn’t imply that external vendors can’t be included; however, ensure that the methodology employed by the external vendor is deeply embedded within your company, with internal personnel aiding in its development.
Regarding the outcome of an EVP, it is immaterial. Whatever suits your needs. You can invest $250,000 on a comprehensive brand architecture endeavor, or you can execute it for free internally with a few team members enhancing your careers website.
Is it true that $250,000 is a figure some are investing for an EVP?
Oh, absolutely.
If you consider a complex brand structure, such as eBay or Facebook, that entails a tremendous amount of research and a deep dive into each of their social media channels (Instagram, Facebook, Twitter).
“You must comprehend the company’s values, how employees perceive them, alongside the messaging and structure for each element and how it integrates into a broader brand. This type of research and brand definition involves considerable time investment. Thus, yes, it could indeed cost that much or more.”
Let’s discuss employer review sites. What are your thoughts on Recruit/Indeed’s acquisition of Glassdoor, and what implications does that hold for talent leaders?
I genuinely believe they will maintain their independence.
I think they will continue to exist as a separate brand for some time, likely integrating some excellent features from Glassdoor into the Indeed review platforms, among other things.
What does this signify for talent leaders? I doubt it entails any significant changes.
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“I believe individuals should begin focusing more on this. There still exists this rather absurd reluctance from leadership or HR legal or others regarding engaging with or managing your Glassdoor presence. I find it rather nonsensical. I mean, we have a social media response framework for Twitter, Facebook, etc. For any significant brand, why not for Glassdoor?”
I only observe it becoming increasingly vital as job markets evolve. As the economy heats up, particularly in Silicon Valley, and circumstances become more stringent, it’s essential to set yourself apart in some way.
What would you advise talent leaders who feel uneasy or distressed because their Glassdoor ratings are not quite where they aspire to be? What’s your guidance in that scenario?
No matter if you dislike it or not, it remains a fact.
This reflects what your staff are expressing about their experiences.
I find it particularly intriguing to examine what employees mention when they depart. Those assessments are quite revealing and usually candid about your critical issues. Therefore, if you want to enact change, you must amend something within—this won’t be rectified by a PR strategy on Glassdoor.
It’s imperative to analyze the themes and the data while addressing those three key issues that employees frequently mention.
That requires actual effort that necessitates genuine executive support and approval. However, when you commence addressing it, you will notice improvements in your scores. Additionally, the recruiting process will become more streamlined.
How would you contrast Comparably with Glassdoor? Is Comparably an alternative to Glassdoor?
I would assert they are undoubtedly rival platforms.
I believe Comparably’s distinguishing features lie in the way they gather data from reviewers (employees) and the depth of that information. They employ a truly captivating type of CRM-driven communications, gradually accumulating more and more insights regarding culture and compensation—much more advanced than Glassdoor.
Over time, I think Comparably will excel. They truly possess a much more compelling dataset than Glassdoor currently holds, yet Comparably remains significantly smaller in comparison to Glassdoor at this moment. They have some expansion ahead, but I find it to be a fantastic platform.
Employer Branding Frameworks — Do you have any frameworks or systems that you utilize to thrive in talent branding and attraction?
It resembles both a management philosophy and a data-oriented approach.
I’ve established teams of up to 15 individuals engaged in these initiatives worldwide. To supervise such a team, you must relinquish control to some degree. This leads me to my philosophy regarding measuring your actions.
“For my teams, there exists only one metric that matters to me; it’s the percentage of candidates for whom we pay who progress to an onsite interview. Thus, the percentage of candidates who come on-site for an interview. This is the success metric across every channel, every campaign, and all our activities.”
Why this simplifies allowing for creativity and development within the team is that it creates ample room for experimentation.
If you wish to explore something unconventional and track the percentage of candidates who make it to an onsite interview, you will acquire very clear and comparable data across your channels…for both paid and unpaid candidates.
This simply makes it remarkably easy to narrate an effective story with data. My singular piece of advice for anyone entering this field would be:
“Select your metric that holds the most significance for your organization and make sure your teams are accountable. This will revolutionize your perspective regarding marketing campaigns and your overall performance.”
Lastly but certainly not least, Employera. That’s your new firm that you’re joining. It appears to be a fascinating blend of employer branding and talent procurement. What motivated you to join Employera?
Employera operates like a management consulting agency focused on employment branding, the talent lifecycle, internal communications, and employee value proposition.
Why did I join? I possess a deep and considerable respect for founding members like Andy (Getsey) and Kirsten Davidson from Glassdoor.
I’ve been entrenched in the rapid-growth startup environment for many years, transitioning firms from a couple of thousand to 20,000. I sought to pivot towards developing something smaller, collaborating closely with a few colleagues, and truly re-engaging in client-based work where you can intimately connect with a client and deliver exceptional results.
So that was my rationale, I’ve just come on board and I’m incredibly enthusiastic about what lies ahead.
